"Be Eager to Maintain the Unity" (Eph 4.3)
Thank you to all who have asked about the visitors dinner at Westminster that my wife and I attended on Friday. I was able to share my concerns about covenant baptism (childhood) with the Pastor. The exchange was gracious and very Christian. I appreciated his kind and ecumenical spirit toward my doctrinal viewpoints. It was refreshing (and reassuring) to witness the unity of Christ's body at work between two brothers who share different viewpoints and convictions of doctrine. It is my conviction that among evangelical brothers mode of baptism is not an issue of separation! The Pastor and I share great fellowship around the doctrines of grace and all fundamental issues regarding the holy Scriptures.
From his standpoint (and rightfully so) I could not serve as either a Pastor or elder within the church until I was able to doctrinally embrace covenant baptism. However, all other avenues of ministry are openned to both my wife and I within the Westminster community. This is a Christian gesture of unity and for that I am greatful. Through this interdenominational experience I am learning and growing in what it means to be 'one new man' united in one Spirit having one Lord and yes, ONE baptism:) (Eph 2-4).
The pastor has found my theology and exegesis interesting enough to meet me for lunch to discuss Christian theology more, or perhaps to try and supplant me:). Either way, I am looking forward to it!
I will end with these thoughts; it refreshing to be united in ministry with other members of the body of Christ, for whom he died, united upon exactly that, his gospel. Might I also say, that it is great to enter a place of worship knowing that a great and LARGE God is going to be prayed to, preached, taught, sung, praised, and worshipped (i.e. Calvinism).
Thanks for listening.
From his standpoint (and rightfully so) I could not serve as either a Pastor or elder within the church until I was able to doctrinally embrace covenant baptism. However, all other avenues of ministry are openned to both my wife and I within the Westminster community. This is a Christian gesture of unity and for that I am greatful. Through this interdenominational experience I am learning and growing in what it means to be 'one new man' united in one Spirit having one Lord and yes, ONE baptism:) (Eph 2-4).
The pastor has found my theology and exegesis interesting enough to meet me for lunch to discuss Christian theology more, or perhaps to try and supplant me:). Either way, I am looking forward to it!
I will end with these thoughts; it refreshing to be united in ministry with other members of the body of Christ, for whom he died, united upon exactly that, his gospel. Might I also say, that it is great to enter a place of worship knowing that a great and LARGE God is going to be prayed to, preached, taught, sung, praised, and worshipped (i.e. Calvinism).
Thanks for listening.
posted by adam at 4:55 PM
14 Comments:
Thomas,
What is all of this talk about "separation"? Could you explain what you mean by that? I am not familiar with the language of this discussion.
Seriously, it is good to enjoy the fellowship of the diversity of the body of Christ isn't it? That is what sovereign grace is all about! Unity through sovereignty!
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You said:
"I will end with these thoughts; it refreshing to be united in ministry with other members of the body of Christ, for whom he died, united upon exactly that, his gospel. Might I also say, that it is great to enter a place of worship knowing that a great and LARGE God is going to be prayed to, preached, taught, sung, praised, and worshipped (i.e. Calvinism)."
Is this REALLY a new experience for you guys? Was there another God who was formerly prayed to? I get the sentiment of what you guys are saying, but you may want to be cautious in your wording; everyone who reads this may not. Don't take this as a pot shot or hidden attempt at a rebuke; it's not. I don't think you question my commitment to the doctrines of grace or my thoughts on separation, so I get your point. I don't know if I've made mine clear or not, but I hope this makes sense.
I think you make a good point Nate. And I think both Adam and I would not want to be construed as comparing or contrasting any two assemblies. I was not attempting to strike a contrast (thus "sovereign grace" not being capitalized); I would never want to give the impression that CB was not God-centered assembly, or imply that it was in some way "sub-standard."
Hey, Hey, Hey! Nate, I was most certainly not trying to write some sort of malicious good bye letter! (exclamation point serves to indicate my tone). Please, I am not trying to compare and contrast Colonial with Westminster. Pastor Daniel has been and is presently a fine pastor in the truest of senses. My wife and I have been afforded the privilege of ministry within the Colonial context and for that alone I would not "flip" Colonial off in ANY sense! The context of the letter bears this out. I was referring to the fellowship that I share with Westminster NOT what I don't share with Colonial!
As far as asking me "Is this REALLY a new experience for you guys?" I am not sure what you are refering to? Perhaps you are refering to my comments on my first "interdenominational experience"?
Again, I know (and hope)that you are giving me a courtesy within the nature of my language being a brother and friend. I accept the "slap" on the verbal hand but please understand that there was and is NO malicious intent behind anything that I am saying or have said!
Also, as moves are made away from fundamentalism it is, I trust, all of our desires to leave graciously and fondly. I have no axe to grind! We all know brothers who have done otherwise and it is not what I want to aspire to or replicate.
Please graciously contextualize me. I will be perhaps more "word-wise" in the future.
I am contextualizing you guys and that was precisely my point. I know you guys feel this way (the comments above); I was just thinking others might not read some of the statements that way. My goal wasn't to "slap on the wrist" but rather to try and prevent you from being misunderstood. I am also concerned, as you observed, to move into broader circles without flipping off Fundamentalism (though at times I have felt otherwise). I want to avoid what I have seen in some others - maintaining the (bad) Fundy spirit, whil abandoning the movement in the name of pursuing unity in the body. How can we have unity in the body when we hate the big toe (as it were). I KNOW you feel the same way; I wanted to make sure others didn't misread you, that's all.
Thank you. Perhaps this is "dicey" element of blogging. Without personal presenec or voice it can be somewhat difficult to completely understand some statements. However, it is worth it! I have come to love blogging!I know that sounds nerdy, but what can I say?
Anyway, man am I glad that misunderstanding is over. Now I don't have to come over to that office of yours and beat you...I mean...get beat up by you :). Just kidding, thanks mihelis
it seems like the debate is a bit personal, and i can see where both sides are coming from.
but i think it is safe to say that it is a truly "new" experience. perhaps i'm the only one (b&t) who should speak on the issue - since neither of you two are actually members of a broader evangelical community (for lack of a better term).
nate, we all know and sympathize with you - because if anyone in fundamentalism has it even close to being right, it's probably colonial.
i think it's just the experience of having someone look you in the eye as you're expounding the measures of your grace/freedom/non-separatism, and having them say, "why are you making a big deal about those things? I'm with you."
windsor about flipped today when i intimated that i wasn't pre-trib - saying, "i don't know that we've ever graduated someone who was not pre-trib." to which i felt like saying, "fine...but you're about to graduate a whole slew of them in the next 2 years."
i know that's school related, but i can't help but wonder if davey wouldn't feel the same sentiment (although he might not act on it)?
okay. too long. i know thomas -
cliff notes.
Logan:
I'm not sure why you think it's "personal" or even a "debate." I've tried to be extremely clear that I am not trying to debate or rebuke anybody here. Likewise, I certainly am not trying to defend DKD, CBC or any church, nor attack any other church. My ONLY concern was that Thomas (and Baylor) not be misunderstood. No one would ever accuse DKD of not praying to a Large God. Though he may not call himself a calvinist, he certainly does have an extremely high view of God; a BIG God at that. Now I DON'T think for a minute that this was what Thomas was implying. I have talked with both he and Baylor extensively about their moves to other assemblies and from what I've seen both of them have an incredibly humble, gracious, Christlike perpsective on both the assembly they are leaving and the ones they are joining. However, not everyone who reads this blog has benefited from the extended discussion with these guys to get the context of the statement. In fact, I strongly encouraged both of them to make the move. So, I'm not trying to rebuke them or defend anyone else...if anything I was trying to defend THEM from being misread.
Regarding your discussion about pretrib: I can't speak for Windsor, but I HAVE talked with Davey extensively on the topic in recent days and from what I can gather he has no problem graduating someone who is pretrib, PROVIDING they can defend their position from the scriptures. In fact, I'm not sure we haven't graduated someone holding that position already; we'll have to look at Scotty O's paper in the Library. Anyway, let me reiterate if anything I said sounded personal IT WAS NOT!!! I have no loyalties here but to Jesus...and maybe JP (that's for you Thomas :-)
Thomas: thanks for sparing me the beat down :-)
I'm falling in love with nate mihelis!...Oh wait...is that comment above board? sorry Mihelis.:)
Thomas, Mihelis and Logan:
Here is my 2 cents on the debate in this chat room . . . all of you guys are out to get me . . . and I am suffering needlessly!
So here I go on the offense:
Logan, your church has one person in a biblical office.
Thomas, you are a church hopper.
Mihelis, your picture has you in a sweater-vest . . . enough said.
Baylor out.
Baylor:
I like to think of it as a muscle shirt with a dress shirt under it. I'm sure you like to think of it that way too...
i spoke with nate and cleared up that by personal - i meant "you are only addressing these two guys and it might be lame for me to jump in"; not, "you guys have it out for each other."
nate, i agree with you...
i believe that Davey has no problem graduating someone who is pre-trib (see your post - ha!)
okay, i know what you meant; my mind is at ease.
and nice call with the sweater vest. i knew your self-love would be able to turn baylor's comment around - although we all know he's always wanted to be like you...
speaking of the devil (i.e., baylor...) can you get through one week without expressing your
anything-but-subtle self-aggrandizement (cloaked in psuedo-humility)?
here we are on a post titled "be eager to maintain the unity" and you're on here trying to stir up trouble like usual. why don't you and KJV just call it a marriage, and goes and raise you know what somewhere else.
as for my church and it's one biblical officer - let me quote Davey: "two heads make a monster!"
so how many officers are there at your...oh wait - you have no church; you have no home. you've forsaken the assembly (evidenced by the fact that I have been giving account to people at CBC for where YOU'VE been - just because they know we're friends. they say, "where's baylor been, i haven't seen him for months?" and i say, "it's a sad story...he's fallen away; he's not even a member anywhere right now."
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